The Oracle Lenormand

lennie wrote:

i am not reading everyone's posts first...so you know this came out of my own head...

Lately i have decided that i don't want to 'over' read too much into each card, as i found
(for me anyway) it is better if i stick to the 'main' info for the card. What i mean is that i can
remember it better that way. Also, after loosing myself within tarot interpretations
(upright and reversed) since the 70's, i prefer not to add a bunch of branched off meanings
to each card as (for me) it would feel too much like the tarot again...and believe me that
is a lot of work! The simplicity of the Lenormand is what has attracted me the most.
So i say to 'myself': "i" need to keep this simple!... LOL

Further, there is nothing wrong with peope expanding on the meanings for these cards,
but just for me, i will keep my posting to brief meanings and right to the point...hope you all don't mind.

actually, I see well where you are coming from Lennie. This is what attracted me to the Lenormand at first too--it's simplicity. Just like with my tea leaf fortune reading cards too. I think you make a very valid point!

Quote :

Scythe
This card has a 'cutting' affect. It cuts something 'right off' quickly and shockingly!!!
There will be 'no return' once it cuts something (or you) off! It also represents
accidents or operations. It is mostly negative in its action, however, there are times
that cutting off something from your life may be a good thing! Such as a 'bad' boyfriend
or girlfriend dumping you! They cut you off quickly but it may turn out to
be the best thing that ever happened to you...LOL

yes, I agree with this. sometimes even a hurtful cut is the best for us in the long run and something that was needed.

Quote :

Whip
Arguments, hassels, disagreements that cause separation and divorces.
A card showing abuses using violence, anger, and even torture causing suffering as well.
There is also a 'sexual' side to this card...maybe even a 'weird' sexual side to it.

When this card describes another card (or a person), then it can show that they are an
'addict' of some sort. Some texts that i have read even mentioned this card represents
'stalking or a stalker'...i sure would not want someone like this following me around
or someone with these whip 'characteristics' in my life!

lol! no! yes, again, I do agree with this. I did have a stalker once--terribly frightening and it took years to really get over. Our daughter also had a stalker (an ex boyfriend) when she was young. We had to take legal action for that! This was another terribly frightening time for us all. I never really thought about this card as a stalker, but yes, I do now. Especially recalling how I felt when I was being stalked and how we all felt when our daughter was too. You feel so alone and scared and abused--even if something doesn't really happen to you personally. good pick up here, Lennie!

Quote :

Reading both cards in combination:
Scythe + Whip = Several meanings are possible, but i could read it as 'you cut off someone
from abusing you any longer'...or 'you stopped (cut out) having sex with someone'
...or...dangerous situation involving sex...someone could hurt you...rape you, etc.

yes, yes! very good!

Quote :

Whip + Scythe = violent abuse (or damaging arguments or fighting) that stopped or that was stopped.
Or a violent accident of some sort maybe involving a knife or other sharp object.

oh yes.

Quote :

Also @CN:
i just want to mention that my dog, RoseBud, did not break her hip but she
absolutely injured it very badly.i will post the results and the facts
of the reading right before i post my next Sat's class reading.

Now to go and read what everyone else said about the Scythe and the Whip...
i think it is really good that we all write our own thoughts on what these cards
mean to us because that way we can learn so much and then we are able to
break down the meanings into our own little ideas for each card. i think we
influence each other in this process. i know i have learned a lot from all of you
on here about the Lenormand cards we have discussed so far! Thank you everyone!

oh poor rosebud! hope she is soon better.

Hi everyone, finally some time to post some thoughts on the two cards!

@ Lennie, i'm so happy that it's looking good for Rosebud!!! stuff like that is always troublesome, so it's good to know that it'll be ok!

-----------
so here my thoughts:

The scythe card to me seems to present more of a positive card then negative. I use the mystical lenormand, and it portrays green rolling hills, and an oxen hitched to a very large load of hay with the scythe on top. I've read what other people think , and they all seem to indicate on a more negative tone. To me it seems it could stand for: the culmination of an event, or happenstance. The ending of a cycle, project, etc…a new chapter, the harvesting of what has been sowed. Things wanted become achieved, but not without work. The harvest becomes attained through diligent steady work.
I do agree that there can be a dark side to it, but the positive seem to outweigh more imo….what do you think?


For the whip I've had a great deal of difficulty interpreting it for some reason. Perhaps more time is needed for me to draw out conclusions. I like to first see what I can get from it before comparing with someone else's. even so, I did like what I found online:
"11- The Birchrod, the Whip: Think before doing something
Think before you speak, and consider exactly who you say what. With the whip many important things can happen. Discussions may degenerate. Wrong words can hurt someone. You can demonstrate power with words or you can help somebody with knowledge. With words and voice can also bring delight. Think about it!"

Lennie also raises some interesting pointers to this card! like being an addict for example!

it's ok!!! i think we are all running short on time lately! :cheetah:

You've got it just right Lakshmi! Didn't have time for much lately!...Just caught up with all the posts I've missed!

Good interpretation for Rosebud's reading Lennie! Yep, so glad she is fine! I know I don't like to see any of my babies hurt even if it is just a little...
Thanks so much for the reading practice and feedbacks! I agree with CN, your deck is stunning; this is for me "the" deck of the year and it's going to satisfy both traditionalists and non-traditionalists!

Everyone has made good points on these 2 cards!
Lakshmi you're doing fine, yes I do see the positive side of the Scythes and have to admit that it was what came to my mind first; then I looked into the cutting tool that is used and that can hurt real bad to find the other meanings. Thanks for the info you found about the Whip, I have never come across that interpretation before, I don't have it in my books and course either!

I'm starting to wonder if the Lenormand Oracle doesn't necessitate to be interpreted more according to a set up meaning than according to the art...Because the pictures can represent a lot of different things according to who is looking at them. I find a lot of controversies....It is almost like that there would be as many different meanings attributed to each card that there are readers.

For example, The Bear is viewed by S. Steinbach as "cash flow, windfall of money", well looking at a bear doesn't trigger that in me...(other authors have also different views)

What do you think?

lennie wrote:

ETA: Sorry, Lady Sibella, I just noticed your post asking about the 15. The BEAR card:

Do I see it as cash flow?

Well, to me, I see it as 'status and power'... and a lot of times a person with a lot of status or power also has a lot of assets as well...
For instance, the president of a company...(well they usually have a lot of money...normally speaking) Someone in power or at the TOP of a company and
they usually, not always though, have money, assets, and cash flow. This is probably why most traditionalists think of it as showing one's finances
(which is cash flow as well)

I do think the bear CAN show 'cash flow' just because it describes someone (or thing, depending on the card it is next to or talking about) that is
of an important status with great power...and along with that comes the money and money flow then.

Note that , I have also seen the bear as describing a 'BIG' person physically, if next to a person card. It CAN be a very large built or even and obese person.
It can be an 'overbearing' person as well, or even a 'protective' person (with money...LOL) ...business mongrol?

Also, Lady Sibella, re: what you said here:
"I'm starting to wonder if the Lenormand Oracle doesn't necessitate to be interpreted more according to a set up meaning than according to the art...Because the pictures can represent a lot of different things according to who is looking at them. I find a lot of controversies....It is almost like that there would be as many different meanings attributed to each card that there are readers."

This is precisely why I posted that I MUST KEEP IT SIMPLE for myself, otherwise if we give too many meanings to each card, it then becomes like tarot!!!
This shouldn't be rocket science! The Main attraction to the Lenormand deck IS the simplicity of the symbolism...but leave it to newbies to come in and
add a bazillion zillion new meanings to each card...and BAM...no longer attractive or simple to read. Then you might as well go back to tarot to do your readings...(when I say you and your...I mean everyone in general)...
Just my feelings on the matter...

Thanks Lennie!

I agree with you with keeping it simple! and I see your point about the Bear. I was seeing it as an Important Powerful Person but somehow didn't make the connection with money....duh...I don't know where I had my head!

So if we look at it that way, the Fish would be prosperity, money increase but just like regular for everyone regardless of the source and the Bear would be linked to people having a powerful status in society...and big businesses.

Now, yeah for the decks I think the simplest the best and regarding my Mystical even though I love the art I'm gonna be careful not to be carried away with the art and all the symbolism....

But there is even more I am thinking and that I will share in another post regarding the decks and the cards. Right now I'm a bit pressed with time...

LadySibella wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if the Lenormand Oracle doesn't necessitate to be interpreted more according to a set up meaning than according to the art...Because the pictures can represent a lot of different things according to who is looking at them. I find a lot of controversies....It is almost like that there would be as many different meanings attributed to each card that there are readers.

well now. I can see that many will agree with this, but for me, I just cannot read that way. I would rather read with a blank deck of cards then, (and have done so a few times, which was interesting.........) and let my intuition roll! I know that the cards do have specific meanings, and I'm trying to incorporating them into what I 'see' as well--but when it comes right down to it, I know how I am, and if I am using this deck to read for someone, I will not be wanting to look up the meaning in the LWB, nor just telling them off the top of my head a memorized phrase from teh LWB. For me, that is NOT a great reading. I will just go with what I 'feel' it does mean.

I can already see that even though I love the Lenormand and such, and I am incorportating the meaning from the LWB as well as what I know things like "Bear" mean and what I've found it to mean by researching the web, that when it does come down to it--I won't use that in a reading. Perhaps some of it will 'stick' to me, but I can see I am going to use this deck much like I do use my Tea Leaf Fortune Reading deck.

That particular oracle has over 200 cards in it, and who has time to memorize all that? Not me! and no desire to do so either. So, I deal them out and let my intuition roll with the pictures. Like the Lenormand, each card has a picture on it. Unlike the Lenormand, the pictures are rather simple. no extras included. If they had a bear, it would be a bear only. No trees, no grass, no flowers, no nothing else--just teh bear!

And, while I cannot even recall anymore what I typed here for my thoughts on bear, I will tell you right now, that if I was reading for someone and this card came up, I'd say someone is being difficult or is feeling some anxiety, possibly related to the well being of someone they love (such as mother/child).

Quote :

For example, The Bear is viewed by S. Steinbach as "cash flow, windfall of money", well looking at a bear doesn't trigger that in me...(other authors have also different views)

What do you think?

oops! started my thoughts above this and didn't feel like cutting and pasting--so my thoughts are between your words, LS.

lennie wrote:

ETA: Sorry, Lady Sibella, I just noticed your post asking about the 15. The BEAR card:

Do I see it as cash flow?

Well, to me, I see it as 'status and power'... and a lot of times a person with a lot of status or power also has a lot of assets as well...
For instance, the president of a company...(well they usually have a lot of money...normally speaking) Someone in power or at the TOP of a company and
they usually, not always though, have money, assets, and cash flow. This is probably why most traditionalists think of it as showing one's finances
(which is cash flow as well)

I do think the bear CAN show 'cash flow' just because it describes someone (or thing, depending on the card it is next to or talking about) that is
of an important status with great power...and along with that comes the money and money flow then.

hmmm..didn't think of this, and while I think you are correct here, I just still cannot see the Bear as being someone with cash flow. that's me though. I still see it as someone aggressive or perhaps in a bad mood, aggressive, etc. as I mentioned in my post.

Quote :

Note that , I have also seen the bear as describing a 'BIG' person physically, if next to a person card. It CAN be a very large built or even and obese person.
It can be an 'overbearing' person as well, or even a 'protective' person (with money...LOL) ...business mongrol?

Now this I can also agree with you on 100%! I often describe my Uncle and also my best friends husband as "a big ol' bear of a man!" Because both men are over 6' tall, and built BIG--big shoulders, and just......well BIG!!! they are also cupcakes over all. I mean, as big as they are, they are a bit intimidating, and they also both have BIG booming voices, like a wild bear. But, underneath it all, they are like sweet cupcakes. The nicest two men you could meet, as long as you don't P*ss them off, you know?

Quote :

Also, Lady Sibella, re: what you said here:
"I'm starting to wonder if the Lenormand Oracle doesn't necessitate to be interpreted more according to a set up meaning than according to the art...Because the pictures can represent a lot of different things according to who is looking at them. I find a lot of controversies....It is almost like that there would be as many different meanings attributed to each card that there are readers."

and, this is the beauty of using your intuition when reading cards, eh? who wants to go to a reader who is only going to see a memorized line for a card when it appears? heck, anyone could do that!

Quote :

This is precisely why I posted that I MUST KEEP IT SIMPLE for myself, otherwise if we give too many meanings to each card, it then becomes like tarot!!!
This shouldn't be rocket science! The Main attraction to the Lenormand deck IS the simplicity of the symbolism...but leave it to newbies to come in and
add a bazillion zillion new meanings to each card...and BAM...no longer attractive or simple to read. Then you might as well go back to tarot to do your readings...(when I say you and your...I mean everyone in general)...
Just my feelings on the matter...

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which is fine too. but for me, and I know some people will disagree/disapprove of my ways, and some will support me on it, but for me, when it comes right down to it, I'll go with what the card/picture inspires for me to say. I do the same with my psychic readings. sometimes I end up learning that it is not what I thought--and it was something totally different. in that case--I've learned something new to remember for the next time. Sometimes, I do use the 'generally' accepted meaning of things, such as if I see a lot of red around a person, but it's soft and flowy, I know it is a feeling of love. if it is dark and menacing looking and feeling, I know there is anger there. same with when I am reading the cards.

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Now, LadySibella, are we to start the next two cards in the deck or are we going to wait till this coming weekend? I'm a bit anxious to keep going, can you tell? been gone awhile and I've missed this!!!!

Ok we can study the Birds and the Child...

I'll try to find time to finish my thoughts on this subject about the cards and the Oracle in general. And there might be info that I've found that will be of interest for you...So, if it is not today, hopefully tomorrow. This week is heavier than others as I was gone most of the morning,now I have to do the accounting for our business, thursday I'll be gone because Ford got some recall replacement to do on my car and Friday I have to go to the biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig town to do all that I cannot do here in the country

Stil, no problem go ahead with the 2 next cards, I, too am eager to see what they say to me!

:sun105:

IMPORTANT NOTIFICATION

Like announced earlier, I have now moved every posts related to the "Practice Reading" that Lennie is providing for us all.

Therefore, you will find your posts on our new thread reserved for that and called "Lenormand Practice" under the same sub-forum "Astrology".

From now on, please remember to use that new thread for all reading practice posts. I did that to keep things well organized and easier to go through.

Some of you had mixed a bit of the study with the reading practice in the same post and I had to make a decision...I opted to move these mixed posts to the reading practice as they were mostly about the practice. If I can I will split your post and place what belongs to the study to the "Lenormand Oracle" thread.

:thanks: for your understanding and cooperation

You're welcome Lennie! I'm glad you find it better that way too!

Like I had said I would, I'm giving some closing thoughts about the Oracle decks:

Concluding thought about the Scythe we studied:

This remains a dilemma for me:
The main meaning is a "cutting, accidents, end, separation, surgery...." but artists show bundles of hay more or less abundant...like in the Mystical a full wagon load which led Lakshmi to see the card primarily as a "harvest/increase" card.

1st problem, the Fish is about increase therefore we would have 2 cards about increase...
In a reading how would we then interpret the Fish + Scythe...

If we look at it Scythe wise: Then it means that our prosperity, money is threatened to diminish greatly, we are going to experience some "cuts", or will be taken from us, will stop...

If we look at it "Hay/Harvest" wise: Our prosperity, money is going to increase even more! We are going to add on, we are reaping even more...

2 more examples:

Just Imagine you get the "lady" and next to her "the Scythe"!

Is she going to experience an "Increase" or a "surgery, accident, cutting of something in her life"?

Now, a reading that has the Heart + the Scythe

Is it a Love that is blooming, increasing (harvest side on the picture) or a love that is ending, a separation???

Well, for each example I have come up with, the Scythe card has to represent either a Scythe or a Hay harvest, either a cutting, an end, separation or abundance, increase. IMO, it can't be both.

I think that the artist should make up his/her mind and show only one main meaning per card. For the Scythe as visibly it is supposed to be the cutting, end etc...meaning then a better way would have been to only show the Scythe with a cut field, no sign of hay harvest or increase. Some older decks did add dark clouds maybe to remind the reader that even though there are bundles of hay, the Oracle is not talking about increase (my GDR does have a grey cloudy sky).

Moreover for timing, the Scythe is "quick" in the cutting way of seeing it, but in the harvest way this requires quite some time and work. Again it can't be both. Thus in my opinion with decks that show bundles of hay or wagon of hay I will have to not pay attention to that part of the picture, the best for me being to get a deck with a Scythe that doesn't show a harvest and thanks to Lennie that is coming!

Now, Lakshmi as you have trouble seeing anything else but the "Harvest/increase" pictured on the Mystical, I don't know what to say...If you "reprogram" the Oracle with this card having that main meaning, that could be doable but what troubles me is which card then will give you an hint about "cutting, accidents, end, separation, surgery...."??? I honestly have no answer to that. Does anyone have an idea?

And finally, to talk about the cards in general and reading them; I do use my intuition and always will, but I do mix it with the key meaning of each card. I do that because I believe that when a certain oracle is created, the person who does it has a specific idea about what each card is going to represent. Thus it is like there is a "pact" made, a codification...like Hieroglyphs. Each picture has a key meaning that is the language of the Oracle. The Oracle then "speaks" using certain images, just like the Egyptians spoke with certain images. To understand an Egyptian text, one needs to know what each image means. Thus, it is like the Oracle is programmed by the one who set it up in the first place; when artists mess with that programing, we can get tricked by the picture and we might misinterpret what the Oracle was saying, unless...we reprogram it.
How do you see the creation of an Oracle, like when whoever created the 1st Lenormand after Mlle Lenormand died (not a deck, like not a “version” of the Lenormand for instance).
What I've also been thinking about is: “symbols in dreams” I have had prophetic dreams since as far as I can remember and what I noticed was that the symbols in my dreams are consistent in their meaning. I can trust that a Snake has always the same meaning, I get detailed info according to its size and color but the main meaning has always been the same, and this is true for all other symbols. If our dreams, at least mine, have symbols with unchangeable base meaning then I expect an Oracle to be the same. It would be very confusing for me if the Snake in my dreams was meaning "treachery" at times, and at others "loyalty"...

Well, that was all I have been thinking about the Oracle deck in general which was triggered by the cards we studied and the fact that I have several decks and see the differences in the art...

Oh and just one more, did you notice all the types of boat that are shown in the diverse version of the Lenormand??? Some show a bad storm...”people having a bad/perilous trip?” others a beautiful sunshine...”people having fun on a cruise, easy breezy?”

Again, I think that to be consistent with the main meaning of the card and to "speak" the Lenormand language...it should be a neutral pic of a boat, no storm but no emphases either on a bright sunshine.,,,
Anyway, with the Lenormand it is the other cards that give you the details….and in the case of the Ship card, it is by combining it with the following card, that we would know if it is a "storm" or a "sunshine" situation.

And one last word that just popped up! I see the importance of being consistent in what each card means also for quick spread....

When I do a "Wisdom of the day" I pull just 1 card and look at the base card to give me the "theme" what subject the Oracle is talking about.
The main meaning cannot be speaking of two opposite things or it would be useless.

If I should not pay attention to the codification of the Oracle and would have to rely only on my intuition then personally I would not use the Oracle at all. I would just close my eyes and ponder upon the images I see and interpret my vision. Then I have no need to use an oracle deck.

I guess I'm going to focus on the main meaning of each card and for the Scythe I will disregard the Hay harvest part (until I get Lennie's deck!) and let my intuition speak to adapt that meaning to the reading and also let the message unfold with the combination with the other cards.

What are your thoughts about all that?

Hey Sibella, great post, and thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this!

yup, that does raise diffculties. i don't have much knowledge on the lenormand decks (thus why i'm learning! lol) so i can't say if another card could represent it, but i think you are right. it's a bit of a bother for me admittedly, because well, i had hoped to insert the interpretation based completely on what i see. for me though, i don't think i will be able to fully lean on it any longer. the mystical deck represents the harvest in a completely different manner than it should, (at least for me) which then as you stated, "removes" a card from the deck......perhaps then, yes, we should use key words and then combine our intuition to interpret the card. this way, we don't fully lean on someone's ideas. but it would be nice to know what THE originial meanings were for each card. as you said, the lenormand is a certain kind of divination so why change it completely around? it's harder though seeing how many creators go away from the "key" meanings of the cards.....in other words almost it wouldn't be a lenormand deck??? i'm just tossing some thoughts here. because then, multiple decks; multiple meanings.
i don't want to go traditional. maybe what i'd like is a very fine thread, but would it not work indeed?
haha, i'm just completely agreeing here, but well, it was well thought out!

:thanks: Lakshmi for sharing your own thoughts on that!

I actually looked up French website trying to see if the original meanings of the cards as used by Mlle Lenormand were the meanings that we know now...

Well, we know that Mlle Lenormand never used a deck like we have them now, that's 1 fact. She was using a regular playing card deck and had her set of meaning for each card.
I actually found a doc from the early 19 century while she was still alive, giving her interpretation for each playing card. It doesn't match with the interpretation given to the Lenormand decks that were created after her death! Thus, I concluded that when the creator of the Lenormand deck as we know it, put it together he/she didn't try to create a picture to illustrate the meaning that Mlle Lenormand was giving to each card....no, he/she created a brand new deck of divination cards, that would make an brand new oracle. To attract attention and therefore generate more sales, he/she thought of using the fame of Mlle Lenormand and for that reason called his/her deck "Oracle Lenormand"....Very good choice of marketing tool, as she was known to have an efficient way of reading cards and had read card for famous people successfully...
In the end, the only part to be from Mlle Lenormand on this Oracle is its name and that ends right there!
Therefore the traditional meanings are the meaning that the creator of the deck intended for his/her oracle but not those coming from Mlle Lenormand!
I think it safe to not disturb the basic meaning set up by the creator of the Lenormand Oracle, even with the decks that have playing card inserts (knowing that anyway, they are not Mlle Lenormand's) because for me, it is the way that the one who created this Oracle programmed it with a specific codification associated to a particular picture. What I think we do is to remember what that the deck's creator intended the Snake to represent treachery, the Clover luck, etc...and we just expend on that base using our intuition while doing a reading. Visibly, about all the most important matters of life seem to be represented in the deck by a picture; I see that as giving us a start to work with.
If I would encounter a major problem with the way the creator of the Oracle codified his deck then I guess I would have to reprogram almost the entire deck...For sure, if I discover that 2 cards have an identical meaning I will have to make changes but once I do so, I will stick to "my" codification. As I have not studied the entire deck I wonder about certain cards....

Please take a look at what we have that depict a "News/Info" theme:

The Rider, The Birds, The Letter....

It could look like as if we have 3 cards programmed about the same theme...
Though I found slight differences:

The Rider: news, info arriving quickly in any way.

The Birds: news, info that comes orally like phone call, conversations, etc..

The Letter: news, info that arrive written, like a letter an email etc...

What are your thoughts on all that?

Thanks

ETA: I know that I going on with my observation of the deck rather than with the study of our cards for the week....but this is a matter that I keep thinking about...It is a "side study" I will say and I can't help but pondering over it because of the liberties artists are taking with the "picture code" and because of the diverse meanings given to the cards by diverse authors....and the "traditional" meanings that can also be found....Very controversial, that might be why so many people only collect the Lenormand Oracle or start to study it to give up after a while because they find all that too confusing...Well, I want to stick to using this Oracle!

All that to say, don't let this side study hold you back from studying:

The Birds and The Child card! that study is for this week, I have completed it but will post it later. Thanks for your participation! :bigsun:

Okay, birds and child.

I don't have a birds???? I lost track where we were at too, but I think..........you are referring to the owls.

so, I'll do owls and child, as those are the next two in my deck.

OWLS: Whenever I see an owl I immediately think of wisdom, book learning and such. but, looking into the LWB, I see it is to stand for nervousness, a mad rush and sorrows. it an also indicate telephone calls and two elderly women.

I can see the telephone calls and also the sorrow, as owls sometimes sound so mournful when they hoot. but I have a difficult time with the other meanings in this LWB. I was brought up in a family who attached much meaning to a lot in life--and was always told that birds are always about communication. I do recall somewhere hearing that owls can symbolize a death--and so perhaps this would be an accurate meaning.

For me, owls are also symbolic of inner wisdom, our intuition. They are often thought to be linked to psychics, the underworld and the moon. So I can see they as mysterious as well.

the two owls in my card look like they know something and they are just daring us to figure out what it is, so I'd say this card could symbolize secret knowledge as well.

the symbol in the upper right hand corner I cannot identify, but it is close to the Mars symbol, so I wonder if it is suppose to mars. too bad the LWB doesn't identify these for us. a serious lack in that!

the child I'd relate to freedom and innocence. Fun and pleasurable times. Daydreaming. Especially as the fairies are all around her too and enjoying themselves and her little white dog is running gleefully at her feet as she swings. the astrological symbol in this corner is the one for Aries. Also generally, the start of spring,when evrything is fresh and new again. I really like this card. It is a very sweet and happy go lucky card! If I were to see this in a reading, I'd always read it as good times coming, restful times, when you feel really happy and at peace with yourself and the world.

LadySibella wrote:

:thanks: Lakshmi for sharing your own thoughts on that!

I actually looked up French website trying to see if the original meanings of the cards as used by Mlle Lenormand were the meanings that we know now...

Well, we know that Mlle Lenormand never used a deck like we have them now, that's 1 fact. She was using a regular playing card deck and had her set of meaning for each card.
I actually found a doc from the early 19 century while she was still alive, giving her interpretation for each playing card. It doesn't match with the interpretation given to the Lenormand decks that were created after her death!

REALLY??! This surprises me! Can you share the site that you found for her meanings with each card? I'd be interested in reading it.

Quote :

Thus, I concluded that when the creator of the Lenormand deck as we know it, put it together he/she didn't try to create a picture to illustrate the meaning that Mlle Lenormand was giving to each card....no, he/she created a brand new deck of divination cards, that would make an brand new oracle. To attract attention and therefore generate more sales, he/she thought of using the fame of Mlle Lenormand and for that reason called his/her deck "Oracle Lenormand"....Very good choice of marketing tool, as she was known to have an efficient way of reading cards and had read card for famous people successfully...
In the end, the only part to be from Mlle Lenormand on this Oracle is its name and that ends right there!
Therefore the traditional meanings are the meaning that the creator of the deck intended for his/her oracle but not those coming from Mlle Lenormand!
I think it safe to not disturb the basic meaning set up by the creator of the Lenormand Oracle, even with the decks that have playing card inserts (knowing that anyway, they are not Mlle Lenormand's) because for me, it is the way that the one who created this Oracle programmed it with a specific codification associated to a particular picture. What I think we do is to remember what that the deck's creator intended the Snake to represent treachery, the Clover luck, etc...and we just expend on that base using our intuition while doing a reading. Visibly, about all the most important matters of life seem to be represented in the deck by a picture; I see that as giving us a start to work with.
If I would encounter a major problem with the way the creator of the Oracle codified his deck then I guess I would have to reprogram almost the entire deck...For sure, if I discover that 2 cards have an identical meaning I will have to make changes but once I do so, I will stick to "my" codification. As I have not studied the entire deck I wonder about certain cards....

Please take a look at what we have that depict a "News/Info" theme:

The Rider, The Birds, The Letter....

It could look like as if we have 3 cards programmed about the same theme...
Though I found slight differences:

The Rider: news, info arriving quickly in any way.

The Birds: news, info that comes orally like phone call, conversations, etc..

The Letter: news, info that arrive written, like a letter an email etc...

What are your thoughts on all that?

Thanks

ETA: I know that I going on with my observation of the deck rather than with the study of our cards for the week....but this is a matter that I keep thinking about...It is a "side study" I will say and I can't help but pondering over it because of the liberties artists are taking with the "picture code" and because of the diverse meanings given to the cards by diverse authors....and the "traditional" meanings that can also be found....Very controversial, that might be why so many people only collect the Lenormand Oracle or start to study it to give up after a while because they find all that too confusing...Well, I want to stick to using this Oracle!

All that to say, don't let this side study hold you back from studying:

The Birds and The Child card! that study is for this week, I have completed it but will post it later. Thanks for your participation! :bigsun:

I won't allow anything to stand in my way of studying this oracle or any ohter. I've never been one to stick only to what hte book/creator of a deck says, whether its playing cards, lenormand, tarot or other oracle. I guess I'm a rebel. but, I cannot help it. If I am going to have to only learn one way to read a set of cards because that is the "only" way the artist deemed it to be read, then that artist better get ready to hear what I have to say.

I am just a free thinker. I have my 'own' set of ideas and pictures can help me to determine what the meaning is, whether others agree with it or not. THAT to me is using my intuition. That is what reading the tarot, the Lenormand, the playing cards or what have you is all about. being different is okay. its not anything to fear or worry about. and that is what I like to be most!

Before I read your posts here is my interpretation for The Birds and The Child:

The Birds

Mainly "Vocal communications" discussions of all types "spiritual, wisdom, love talk, chit chat, etc..." This is shown with the diverse way the card has been represented:
- Mystical has owls (spiritual and wisdom)
- Carta Mundi has doves around a nest (love and family) ,
-GDR has 3 birds on a tree (chit chat)

this card talks about news but given orally

I guess the number of birds is probably irrelevant; the general idea is just to show the "communication" part of the card, to let you know that is not a monolog...

I. Treppner adds Hectic, stress as secondary meanings
2. Britta "small troubles"
3. the authors of the 3 books I have center on Communication

And that is what I agree the most with...I don't see why some include also nervousness, worries, difficulties??? that is spoken about in diverse LWB I have...Birds are far from symbolizing "worries, stress, difficulties, and nervousness??? but being chatty, talkative yeah, because they never stop singing...first thing I hear in the morning! (I sleep with my windows open)

Moreover we already have the Mice card to suggest worries, stress and nervousness and IMO the Mice are a better symbolism for that than the Birds. Also, personally, I don't want to have several cards suggesting the same message....

Thus, the birds for me will be about "vocal communication and vocal news"

Cartomancy according to C. Silvestre: 7 of diamonds: Arguments, quarrels, discussions.

The Child:

Novelty, something fresh, childhood, immaturity, lively, playful, carefree, represents a child boy or girl.

I.Treppner mentions "a little bit of...." like a little bit of money, an extra job...I think the idea is there because you can associate a child with little things.

S. Steinbach says it can foretell a pregnancy!

Cartomancy (C. S)Jack of Spade: hypocrisy, malice, meanness, but also events that happen quickly. She said that as it doesn't match with the Child, the last meaning should be the one to retain.

That's it for these 2 cards, now I'm gonna go over your interpretations...

Thanks Lennie & CN for your interpretation of the Birds and Child

You both made good points about these 2 cards...

I see also that both of you spoke about the "nervousness" of the card...it still doesn't click with me.

Great interpretation of the combo Lennie! I agree with both!

CN wrote:

…I don't have a birds???? I lost track where we were at too, but I think..........you are referring to the owls.

Yep, most decks call it the Birds card, and the Mystical chose “owls” I read that visibly “Le Petit Lenormand” deck shows “2 women talking” and calls it the Birds card nonetheless…go figure! LOL Anyhow, owls are birds anyway

CN wrote:

….the two owls in my card look like they know something and they are just daring us to figure out what it is, so I'd say this card could symbolize secret knowledge as well.

I won’t go for that interpretation because we already have the Book Card that brings that message, so it would not work for me as I’ve decided to codify my Lenormand without having several cards using the same meaning.

CN wrote:

….the symbol in the upper right hand corner I cannot identify, but it is close to the Mars symbol, so I wonder if it is suppose to mars. too bad the LWB doesn't identify these for us. a serious lack in that!

I looked my Mystical and actually it is the symbol for the planet Uranius which fits well the Birds card at least from what I know about that planet.

CN wrote:

… the astrological symbol in this corner is the one for Aries.

On my edition of the Mystical they put the 5th House which corresponds well. I wonder why they made these changes on the Mystical, it doesn’t seem that there is any good reasons.

I agree with you CN, this card imparts good feelings and that is true with all the different decks I have!

CN wrote:

...REALLY??! This surprises me! Can you share the site that you found for her meanings with each card? I'd be interested in reading it.

Yep, I didn't keep the website because I downloaded the doc, I'm gonna see if I can attach a PDF in a Pm if not I can always email it to you if you want? the only thing is that it is in French.

CN wrote:

... If I am going to have to only learn one way to read a set of cards because that is the "only" way the artist deemed it to be read, then that artist better get ready to hear what I have to say.

That's exactly my point, I won't go by the artist because each artist made it according to his/her liking...What I'm interested in is "whoever" created the deck in the first place and how that person "picture coded" his/her deck originally... what were the meanings for each card the creator of the Orale wanted to show in his deck? I assume that maybe they are somewhat matching what is called "the traditional" meanings? Don't know for sure...So, I will go with what make sense to me as I study each card.

CN wrote:

... being different is okay. its not anything to fear or worry about. and that is what I like to be most!

Indeed! What counts is that we get accurate readings and whichever way we use to achieve that goal doesn't matter much!

Well, I'm gonna go to the PM section and see if I can send that PDF!

ETA:

CN I can't attach a file with a Pm, could you Pm me your email address and I will email that file to you?

You're lucky CN!!! I did a search on google.fr with the Title of the book (it is an actual book scanned into a pdf) and I got the link! That makes things a lot simpler...

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

When you are on the page if you want to download click on:

"telecharger"

Or you can read it just like that online!

ok, sorry for being so late, here's some thoughts on the 2 cards:

The Birds:
The birds speaks about news, meeting, conversations, etc…it speaks about wisdom as well. And well, it is owls, so besides offering wisdom they could very well offer a more intuitive side. it would be maybe more of a small sort of news, and/or last only for a short duration. I think maybe the news may come in a unexpected moment? Does anyone else think that….

The Child:
Can indicate a child or toddler. Can mean the person in question has childlike quality. Innocence, playfulness, naivety, unbiased, spontaneity, a sense of freedom/carefree. May show that the querant needs to obtain a more open mind, to be able to "see" more. Can offer both positive and negative traits in a person. Also indicates the start of something new & fresh.

---------------

great pointers from you all!
@ Sibella, Steinbach thinks that!?! i never thought of pregnancy looking at the child. i suppose so.....are there any other cards that could represent that? what do you feel about this particular indicator.

Good job Lakshmi!

For "news coming at an unexpected moment", I didn't think about that...What make you think that?

True the Child like many other cards has a positive and negative side...

For the pregnancy meaning, yep I had not thought about it! but when I read it in her book, I thought it could be used like that.

Still, I would think that the Stork would speak even more about pregnancy as it is an old traditional meaning in Europe to link the Storks with pregnancies, actually, no I wrong, the saying talks about birth, the Storks are said to be the one bringing the baby!!! T'was another way to explain to kids how their baby brother or sister came about! But if one can see the Child representing pregnancy I personally would rather choose the Storks because they represent the arrival of babies, and babies are closer to the pregnancy than the little girl shown on the Child card!

Just letting you know that we are now studying on:

The Fox
and
The Bear

Happy study to all!

Lady Sibella, many thanks for the link! I'll go there in a few minutes, but I will also email you my addy--for future reference.

You're welcome CN! It is an interested old doc even if it doesn't tell us anything about the deck that we are using now

LadySibella wrote:

Good job Lakshmi!

For "news coming at an unexpected moment", I didn't think about that...What make you think that?

True the Child like many other cards has a positive and negative side...

For the pregnancy meaning, yep I had not thought about it! but when I read it in her book, I thought it could be used like that.

Still, I would think that the Stork would speak even more about pregnancy as it is an old traditional meaning in Europe to link the Storks with pregnancies, actually, no I wrong, the saying talks about birth, the Storks are said to be the one bringing the baby!!! T'was another way to explain to kids how their baby brother or sister came about! But if one can see the Child representing pregnancy I personally would rather choose the Storks because they represent the arrival of babies, and babies are closer to the pregnancy than the little girl shown on the Child card!

thanks Sibella

well, for news coming at unexpected moments, i thought it could be something as birds can "carry" news. traveling from one place to another. they can be swift too. you may not be expected them to come and bring the news whatever it may be.

that's true about the storks, i've forgotten about that the child card can mean som much already, so perhaps it would be better to add this to the stork.....easier to remember too

True, birds are swift as they come and go, and I can see the idea of being "unexpected" because that is what happens often time, a bird landing on the handrail of my deck....or coming out of no where at full speed and hitting my patio door!!!
I hate it when it happens because I don't want them to get hurt and sometimes they do get knocked out!

that's what's happen when they have a hang-over

Here are my interpretations for our 2 cards:

The Fox

Deception, Cunning, Manipulation, Scams, Con artist, Thief (fox steal chickens from the chicken house) being creative to obtain one’s needs or reach one’s goal without much effort or strength but with the power of the mind.
Watch out not to fall in the trap! Keep an eye open someone is cunning, is using many disguises, flatteries to fulfill a specific agenda...I can't forget the fable by Jean de la Fontaine "the Fox and the Crow", I learned it by heart at school!. Your adversary is witty, has good elocutions, is up to trick and manipulate you.

The Bear:

Leadership, boss, someone benefiting from the work of others or workers, large amount of money, power, protector, confidence. A loner, someone liking his privacy, territorial, with an unfriendly, intimidating appearance (like the French saying "he/she is a bear"). Mature person, caretaker, self-employed, top notch, wealthy people (bears eat royal jelly, honey).

Thank Lennie for posting your interpretation! You beat me to it! I better hurry as it has started to thunder soon enough I will have to shut down! but I've just read what you said and I would to say few words as quick as I can make it!

I agree with you the Fox doesn't speak "work" to me, I don't know why either? Not even the cartomancy part of the card imply that! Here is what C. Silvestre says:

9 of Clubs: Life conditions improve by clever move.

Totally agree with your interpretation, same for the Bear and I will have to remember to associate Bear with heavy person because yeah I can see that!

Here is the cartomancy meaning from C.S:

10 of Clubs, prosperity, abundance, increase, gain coming from luck, comfortable lifestyle.

I love your interpretation of the combinations! I will add to Bear Fox that this is not the kind of person I would like to do business with!!!! and for Fox Bear I know few big farmers around where we live that are known for having build an "empire" the way you discribe that combination!

Great take my friend