The Oracle Lenormand

This is the place to be on BC for all who love the Oracle Lenormand and those who are curious about it...Here, you can get some help with the Oracle, post questions you might have, discuss about the cards' meaning, spreads, the diverse versions of this deck that you like, have or wish to have (there are so many of them!), etc... Really, anything that has to do with this Oracle!

If you've never seen this Oracle, you can take a pick at mine following this link:

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Summary of the other cards we have already studied:

1- The Rider:

Getting news about a certain matter, movement, going places, someone that is not close by pay a visit, news from afar, advancement, new horizons, changes, going further with a project. Leaving our comfort zone to adventure toward the unknown. News, info about a current project. Sense of fast action, quickness of events. Can represent a young man, a vehicle, athletic persons, or endeavors.

Moreover, in a card combination, I interpret the direction toward which the Rider is going to and the one he is leaving. If I use a version with the Rider going toward the left (which is the most common) I will interpret the card on his left as the direction to which one goes, and the card on his right as the place one leaves.

Cartomancy: 9 of Hearts

C. Sylvestre says that the 9 of Hearts: speaks of success and numerous satisfactions. Associated to the Rider it speaks of visits or news that will be satisfying, bringing joys and happiness.


2- The Clover:

Luck in any area, doors are opening wide, success, positive turn of a situation, things are blooming, progressing in the right direction, prosperity, opportunity, sudden turn of the wheel for the better, improvement, gambling, winning if one participate in any gambling, drawing, game. This card has a symbol of speed attached to it, thus it invite to “seize” the opportunity, to step in as soon as the door of luck opens because it will not remain like that.

Cartomancy: 6 of Diamond

C. Sylvestre says that the 6 of Diamond speaks of gifts, rewards, financial gain. The suit of Diamond is linked to finance and material things.

3- The Ship:

It speaks of travels for pleasure (vacations, a cruise), as well as business travels, the other cards will really determine the nature of that journey. It speaks of contact with distant relationships, people living far away from us, like foreign contacts, something or someone coming to us or leaving us….Can also speak of changes, of going further, of relocating. It speaks also of freedom, of dreams, and goals.

Moreover, in a card combination I interpret the direction toward which the ship is sailing. If I use a version with the Ship going toward the left, I will interpret the card on its left as the direction to which one goes, and the card on its right as the place that one leaves. (I believe that by setting up that symbolism, the oracle will respond to it and the right cards will fall on the left and right of the Ship to convey the right message, just like for the Rider)

Cartomancy: 10 of Spades

C. Sylvestre says that the 10 of Spades brings fast results and that with the Ship it quickens any plan concerning a journey, new projects, etc…

4- The House:

This is definitely a positive card and it represents a “home sweet home”. It speaks of a haven, a shelter providing refuge, protection, comfort. Tells us that we can unwind and relax, be at peace and playful like when we were kids; it tells us of being cared for and of family memories. Can also speak of real estate, of a time to settle down. Can mean also to be more family oriented. It speaks also of a life well established, prosper and secure.

Cartomancy: King of Hearts

C. Sylvestre says that the King of Hearts represents a compassionate, loving, devoted, and understanding man. Associated with the House it says that the querent is or will be loved and protected, by his/her family.

5- The Tree:

Another positive card IMO; it speaks of health, vitality, well-being and balance, of the perfect union of the physical and spiritual; of peace and harmony, of our roots & ancestry. It speaks of youth, as well as growing up to maturity. If not well surrounded can speak of sickness, about the fact that your life is out of balance, with the need to reestablish that balance.

Cartomancy: 7 of Hearts

C. Sylvestre says that the 7 of Hearts friendly visits and satisfaction in every area of daily life. Associated with the Tree it confirms peace, harmony, relaxation and good relationships with friends and family.

6- The Clouds:

The clouds bring us a sign of uncertainty, doubts, small annoyance, temporary concerns, worries, troubles, of being temporarily down in spirit, as well as reminding us that it will pass and the sun will shine again… Whatever is going on will change and we should not be overly emotional about it. The Clouds also advise us to be patient when a cloud of delay is upon us, and look up toward days of good fortune. Also to be ready for a change.

“The clouds” for me is not a plain positive card like the Clover, the house, but it is not a “negative” card either. It shows a mix of problem (dark cloud) and solution (the white one). I would read the combination according to which cloud touches which card. I will say that if the dark cloud touches a negative card it is a message that things are quite troublesome but as it is still a cloud, in due time it will pass. If it is the white cloud that touches a negative card I will say that we are encourage to keep a positive mind, reach up for answers and ways, and help to overcome the omen of that negative card. With a positive card by the dark cloud, IMO it would mean watch out trouble is heading your way, and with a positive card touching the white cloud would mean all will turn out for the best.

Cartomancy: 7 of Hearts

C. Sylvestre says that the 7 of Hearts friendly visits and satisfaction in every area of daily life. Associated with the Tree it confirms peace, harmony, relaxation and good relationships with friends and family.

7- The Snake:

For me the keyword is: Watch out! Be on your guard, hold on to what you know is true and right, be careful who you confide with, watch your back, weight your words (they could be turned against you), open your eyes, look pass the “golden” appearance…”not everything that shines is gold”, “if it is too good to be true, it’s because it is!”, hypocrisy, “2 face people”, dishonesty, do some soul searching what is wrong in your life. Indicate also, a “rocky” path, trouble, difficulties, deception, worries, heartaches, manipulations are ahead of you! Watch out where you are stepping, you are on dangerous ground. Remain on the alert…for malevolent persons that are in your acquaintances or that you’re about to meet. Sleep with one eye open!

Cartomancy: Queen of Clubs

C. Sylvestre says that the Queen of Clubs represents a powerful, smart and rather serious woman. With the Snake she can become protective, well intentioned ally, or a hypocrite, deceiving person (male or female) who will not mind coming at you with a smile to stab you in the back….

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This week study:

I'm using the GDR Lenormand

The Coffin & The Flowers



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8- The Coffin:

For me positive and negative card. Physical death? Not the main meaning, but this could also be the case. We can’t shy away from this possibility even if this is a very delicate matter so you have to know when it is possible to predict such a threat, not everyone can face a death threat calmly. What the Coffin represents: sadness, sorrow, serious illness, lack of stamina, the end of something, a radical change, reaching a dead end in any area, also “dead” as unproductive or not beneficial. Finances are not flowing, difficulties to make ends meet, or can barely make it. As a career: funeral home worker, medical examiner. Positive aspects: transformation, renewal, moving on.

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The Flowers

A very positive card, like a ray of sunshine! Happiness, joy, gift, love, invitation, your life is blooming, health wise, you feel great, if ill this would speak of a quick recovery, great atmosphere at work, get promoted… career: florist, gardener. Financially: a check is in the mail, financial prosperity, no worries at all. Great relationships, romantic, affectionate, true love.

I had a saying popping in my head while looking at the combination of the coffin and flower and it was "all is well that ends well!"

Sometimes it is a good things that a situation, or project, or relationship, etc...ends (coffin) and the flowers would indicate that it was for the best, that something far better will get born and that we will be happy with the results.

Of course combinations really need the background of the reading to target the right interpretation and get specific...

ok sounds great to me Sibella!! so, here's mine:

this is my interpretation using the mystical lenormand cards.

The Coffin:

Finality, the end of something. Death even. Could also mean a time of renewal, when old things or ideas and such are put away, buried, giving way to better prospects/not. Could indicate hidden ideas or truths/lies and secrecy.
Also it may signify on taking time to stop, reflect, and observe? As it's an Egyptian coffin, perhaps it also means to preserve ideas, or whatever we may have? To store within ourselves certain ideas?
Health: well, it could very well mean death/and or it won't go away or get better. A time to let go and accept what is.
Love: stale, dormant, or just plainly: there is no love there. The relationship has died of, things are not what they were. The card says as well to just drop it and move on.
Finance: it's not going good. If there was a business prospect, it would become void with this card. Or the new business venture, or just your current job. Can mean you won't be able to pay your bills, your confined to the problems you have with no way out at the moment.



The Bouquet:

Harmony, peace, tranquility, happiness, and prosperity comes to mind when I look at this card. A rosy and cheerful card, that helps show good things are on the way, even may come as a happy surprise.
Health: the bouquet would show that your health is excellent and blooming, or will be.
Love: either your current relationship will bloom and flourish or that you will find a wonderful person, that will match you very well.
Finance: the financial issues become irrelevant with this card. Problems get solved, and finances become stabilized and prosperous. Things become much better all around.

otherwise, i noticed that on the card there are 2 fallen petals on the table....i'm not sure what they mean, any thoughts?

Lakshmi wrote:

The Coffin:

Finality, the end of something. Death even....

Death, yeah I think so too...it is not to be taken lightly but not to be totally avoided either.

In her book C. Sylvestre does mention "death" and "death of a loved one"
S. Steinbach also speak about "serious illness or death" while specifying that it is "rarely a warning of death"

And I agree with her! When it is about physical death it will be rare. We have to know it deep inside, our intuition has to be strong regarding fortelling a physical death.

In my experience, I interpreted the Coffin as a physical death 1 time only and it was so. It was my very first reading with the Oracle. It was not a reading about someone, or about something in particular. I had just done a general reading, read as a story, no question asked. The Coffin was there (I don't remember what surrounded it, and unfortunately back then I was not keeping a journal yet....)But I just knew deep in me that it meant death in the family. At the time I didn't really take it seriously....still, 15 days after I had done the reading, I heard about the death of a relative. This stunned me!

But one thing for sure, I would not do a reading and ask if someone is going to die, and would refuse to do a reading like that if I was asked. If we have to know, I believe the message will pop up by itself.

I think the Coffin can also appear with the meaning of death if we do a past life reading. In that case we are talking about something that is over with and we get a beneficial info; because often times people have phobia linked to the way they died in another life. By knowing how you have died you can conquer the fear of large bodies of water (if you drowned) for instance...

Also, I think that the Coffin can appear in a reading in the "past" area of the reading letting you know about someone who has died. This can come as an explanation for the present. For instance, the client is very depressed in the present and you find out the cause of that emotional state, in the past with the Coffin, thus because a loved one has died...

Finally, I think we could have the Coffin revealing a funeral, like we are going to go to a funeral bringing comfort to a friend for example... Again, our intuition will tell.

So, yes the "death" meaning of the Coffin is a possibility. We just have to be careful with it.

Lakshmi wrote:

Also it may signify on taking time to stop, reflect, and observe?

Yes, very good point!

Lakshmi wrote:

The Bouquet:

....otherwise, i noticed that on the card there are 2 fallen petals on the table....i'm not sure what they mean, any thoughts?

Yes, indeed! I looked it up with my Mystical deck...the fallen petals for me can represent the fact that there is an end to all things...The happiness, and rosy feelings of the Flowers will not be a permanent euphoria. This is life and it's perfectly fine!

great job interpreting these 2 cards!

LadySibella wrote:

Lakshmi wrote:

The Coffin:

Finality, the end of something. Death even....

Death, yeah I think so too...it is not to be taken lightly but not to be totally avoided either.

In her book C. Sylvestre does mention "death" and "death of a loved one"
S. Steinbach also speak about "serious illness or death" while specifying that it is "rarely a warning of death"

And I agree with her! When it is about physical death it will be rare. We have to know it deep inside, our intuition has to be strong regarding fortelling a physical death.

In my experience, I interpreted the Coffin as a physical death 1 time only and it was so. It was my very first reading with the Oracle. It was not a reading about someone, or about something in particular. I had just done a general reading, read as a story, no question asked. The Coffin was there (I don't remember what surrounded it, and unfortunately back then I was not keeping a journal yet....)But I just knew deep in me that it meant death in the family. At the time I didn't really take it seriously....still, 15 days after I had done the reading, I heard about the death of a relative. This stunned me!

But one thing for sure, I would not do a reading and ask if someone is going to die, and would refuse to do a reading like that if I was asked. If we have to know, I believe the message will pop up by itself.

I think the Coffin can also appear with the meaning of death if we do a past life reading. In that case we are talking about something that is over with and we get a beneficial info; because often times people have phobia linked to the way they died in another life. By knowing how you have died you can conquer the fear of large bodies of water (if you drowned) for instance...

Also, I think that the Coffin can appear in a reading in the "past" area of the reading letting you know about someone who has died. This can come as an explanation for the present. For instance, the client is very depressed in the present and you find out the cause of that emotional state, in the past with the Coffin, thus because a loved one has died...

Finally, I think we could have the Coffin revealing a funeral, like we are going to go to a funeral bringing comfort to a friend for example... Again, our intuition will tell.

So, yes the "death" meaning of the Coffin is a possibility. We just have to be careful with it.

Lakshmi wrote:

Also it may signify on taking time to stop, reflect, and observe?

Yes, very good point!

Lakshmi wrote:

The Bouquet:

....otherwise, i noticed that on the card there are 2 fallen petals on the table....i'm not sure what they mean, any thoughts?

Yes, indeed! I looked it up with my Mystical deck...the fallen petals for me can represent the fact that there is an end to all things...The happiness, and rosy feelings of the Flowers will not be a permanent euphoria. This is life and it's perfectly fine!

great job interpreting these 2 cards!

thank you Sibella!! and thanks for adding those great pointers! your representation on the petals sounds right to me! i was thinking something very similar to that, but i wasn't quite sure

You're welcome Lakshmi!

You know there is something I was thinking about the fact that some say there are good, bad and neutral cards in the Lenormand....
Well, with the cards we have studied so far, I'm more thinking that it is not necessarily true. I think that each card has a Yin Yang side.... I won't say that classifying the cards in groups of good/bad/neutral is wrong; but that each card will have a main tendency, so yes, could be classified as "good" like the Flowers or "bad" as the Snake...
But, I believe there is also a positive side even ever so slightly to the "bad" cards like the Snake... like even just the fact that "the Snake" card can tell you to be less naive...The Coffin is rather negative, but on the other hand it might be so beneficial that a trip was cancelled for example and The Flowers are positive, announcing joy, but if they were linked to the memorial of someone who had died then it would not be so joyful...if you see what I mean...

yea, i do! thanks for your input, very interesting!

You're welcome Lakshmi! :sun103:

bouquet

SYMBOLISM
the flowers are bright and cheery looking, upright and tall. they give a feeling of confidence and fun, happy times. in a nice clean looking, homey container on a simple table with a small white cloth.

The flowers are a combination of red roses for love, purple flowers that could be Lavender, not sure. Yellow mums and daisies and a black eyed susan. So, I did a bit of research on the symbolism of each.

Red Rose= love and beauty.
lavender=devotion
yellow mums=slighted love*
daisies=innocence
black eyed susan=encouragement

so, over all a happy symbol here, save for the mums, but I put the * there, because with their pretty yellow color, I still see it as a very positive and cheery symbol.

The bee flying to the flowers symbolizes inspiriation.

the white cloth=purity.

GENERAL MEANINGso, it all seems to be pointing to something good over all. good wishes, hopes and blessings.

NUMEROLOGY/ASTROLOGY
the symbol in the upper right corner is the symbol for jupiter, which indicates good fortune.

CAREER
a florist, or greenhouse keeper, gardener

LOVE
true love, romance

HEALTH
good health returning if illness was recent. good news. hope being sent for better health. congratulations.

SPIRITUALITYThe red rose could be for the BM, also for St. Theresa, the Little Flower, as she always had red roses and it was said the same could be seen to often come out of her body. the purple is about faith and devotion, white for purity and yellow for purity.

TIMING9 days, 9wks, 9mos. or September.

this card was quitesimple to describe, I think. it just gives a feeling of peace and happiness

COFFIN

the coffin is actually not so harsh a looking card, given it's title. the sarcophagus is beautifully colored, and thus indicates an ending, but also perhaps an ending with the knowledge and hope of future success.

The Egyptians believed in life after death, and they often would mummify the dead body and put them in a sarcophagus that was colorfully decorated and supplied with things they felt the spirit of the body would need in the afterlife.

the head of the sarcophagus for instance is symbolic of the head of the deceased, so that the soul would find it easier to find the body in the afterlife.

The color just under the blue and gold striped head piece would indicate a large amount of jewelry to me, and the red and gold round piece in the middle another piece of jewelry--a medalian. All this could indicate the wealth of the deceased.

The blue piece in the middle is a scarab beetle, which is symbolic of good luck, and the wings to either side represent the goddess of the Egyptians that would protect the person.

Even the symbols down the middle of this sarcophagus would have meaning, but alas, my eyes are not THAT good to determine what those symbols are! however, to the sides of teh card and above the card, I can do so, I believe. However, first, like Empath does, I feel I need to supply the site where I got my above information from:

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Some of the information I already knew, but alas, always best to give credit where due.

above the sarcophagus, we again see the wings of the Goddess Nut--offering protection and to the sides, I would believe that just under the number '8' is an image of wheat--so the spirit would not know hunger. then the eye, so the spirit could see outside the sarcophagus. The ankh (cross w/loop at the top) is symbolic of life and then the cobra at the bottom is also symbolic of protection. I think the round ball on its head is either symbolic of the earth or perhaps the sun/moon? not sure and it's not shown in the LWB, so....

at any rate, this card, like death in the tarot, does not necessarily bring with it, ill tidings. It is more of a transformation card, one that indicates one thing is done and over and the person is moving forward into a new light/position. It is over all a well wishing card, I think. However, as with the death card in tarot, I'm sure that when this card pops up, the client may not get that initial impression.

GENERAL MEANING

the general meaning therefore, would be for transformation. leaving something behind and moving forward with a new idea/thought, etc.

NUMEROLOGY/ASTROLOGY
the number 8 in the upper left corner would indicate the 8th day, 8 weeks, or 8 mos. or the month of August. The roman numeral in the right hand side is also depicting 8.

FINANCIAL
Financially, depending on the cards around this, it can be a good or not so good card. If this card was the first card in a spread, I'd say the client is in for an unexpected or is about to start anew in a project that they may not have any idea of where it will lead them. If it comes after a good card, it would enhance the good card to say it will prove very fortunate for them. After a bad card, it would indicate some troubles they will overcome.

If this came at the end of a spread, I'd say that whatever the cards prior to it may indicate, all in all will work out in the end.

CAREER
For career, perhaps someone who is well versed or has something to do with art or hieroglyphics or Egypt, or history. a college professor perhaps? Or perhaps a mortician, grave digger, cemetery caretaker.

LOVE
For love, hmmm...very difficult, really, Ithink. Perhaps a love in a sense of really spiritually connecting and a strong ever lasting love? I'll have to think on this one and come back later.

HEALTH While I think cards very, very rarely do indicate death, I do believe they can indicate health issues. So, if this were to show up in a health reading, it may indicate a bad health problem will be overcome.

SPIRITUALLY
Spiritually, someone who is a believer in the afterlife.

TIMINGthink I already stated--8 days, 8wks, 8 mos or the 8th month--August.

I also noticed in the LWB that this card CAN indicate disease or sorrow. But, I really see it more like the death card in the tarot, and for me, it would have to depend on the position of hte card, with the other cards around it, as well as the question the cards are answering.

If this card was coming after the snake card, perhaps I would see it then as something sad coming their way via another person--a bad act coming their way and would warn them to watch out for that snake. If it was beside the clouds with the dark side of the cloud, it may also indicate illness, but if by the white side, I'd see this as the silver lining in the clouds coming to be--and this would be fortunate. Over all, a change is indicated w/this card, one that wouldn't allow the client to return to the past - as they are moving forward into a new experience/life.

lennie wrote:

Hi! LadySibella and thank you for inviting me here!
... and CN :pirat: ...and any others I know that are here already!

...good to see everyone here!

Hi there Lennie, my good angel friend, and, LadySibella too and everyone else studying along with us! So glad we moved it here where it seems to be a more friendly place to be.


Yes, LadySibella, I agree that the Coffin can sometimes be a good card to get.

Some of my thoughts on: Coffin + Flowers:
Something has ended or didn't work out (Coffin) but things will soon be much brighter, happier, and so much better (Flowers).

Coffin can show a 'past' happening or situation, while the Flowers can show the 'future' influence (after the ending or transformation happened).

So, if a person has been sick, then the 8. Coffin can be a good thing because it could indicate
that their sickness (or health problem) has ended and the 9. Flowers card can show that the person will be
much healthier within 9 days to 9 weeks.

I am very busy right now, but I will try to get here every day to check and see all my lovely friends here
and to contribute as much as time will allow me. I do look forward to reading and sharing with you all

lennie (short for Lenormand deck)...it's good to be here

P. S. I just love the Smilie faces on BC
BTW, LadySibella, the deck you used is so clean and simple...uncluttered...very nice to read with!


[/quote]
I agree whole heartedly too. The coffin is more about transformation and I feel a transformation where it will lead one into a better place. moving on to something better.

Lakshmi wrote:

ok sounds great to me Sibella!! so, here's mine:

this is my interpretation using the mystical lenormand cards.

The Coffin:

Finality, the end of something. Death even. Could also mean a time of renewal, when old things or ideas and such are put away, buried, giving way to better prospects/not. Could indicate hidden ideas or truths/lies and secrecy.
Also it may signify on taking time to stop, reflect, and observe? As it's an Egyptian coffin, perhaps it also means to preserve ideas, or whatever we may have? To store within ourselves certain ideas?

interesting you see it as lies and secrecy. I can see the hidden ideas, but may I ask you to explain how you see it for lies and secrecy? I am not saying I can't ever see htat, but I didn't een think of that! I just want to understand why you see it this way, as it will help me. Unless it's something like 'taking the secret to my grave' kind of thing? hmmm...didn't even think of that before. is this how you mean it? Preserving ideas--THAT IS GREAT!!! sort of along hte lines I got, but I didn't narrow it down that way and love that!

Quote :

Health: well, it could very well mean death/and or it won't go away or get better. A time to let go and accept what is.
Love: stale, dormant, or just plainly: there is no love there. The relationship has died of, things are not what they were. The card says as well to just drop it and move on.
Finance: it's not going good. If there was a business prospect, it would become void with this card. Or the new business venture, or just your current job. Can mean you won't be able to pay your bills, your confined to the problems you have with no way out at the moment.

and see, I don't really think of it as a death per se. Perhaps if it came after a message card though, I'd see it as receiving a message of a death. I don't know...perhaps when I actually begin to read with the deck and have a lot more experience to me, I will change my mind.

Quote :

The Bouquet:

Harmony, peace, tranquility, happiness, and prosperity comes to mind when I look at this card. A rosy and cheerful card, that helps show good things are on the way, even may come as a happy surprise.
Health: the bouquet would show that your health is excellent and blooming, or will be.
Love: either your current relationship will bloom and flourish or that you will find a wonderful person, that will match you very well.
Finance: the financial issues become irrelevant with this card. Problems get solved, and finances become stabilized and prosperous. Things become much better all around.

otherwise, i noticed that on the card there are 2 fallen petals on the table....i'm not sure what they mean, any thoughts?

nice thoughts and how I feel too.

LadySibella wrote:

This week study:

I'm using the GDR Lenormand

The Coffin & The Flowers



[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

8- The Coffin:

For me positive and negative card. Physical death? Not the main meaning, but this could also be the case. We can’t shy away from this possibility even if this is a very delicate matter so you have to know when it is possible to predict such a threat, not everyone can face a death threat calmly. What the Coffin represents: sadness, sorrow, serious illness, lack of stamina, the end of something, a radical change, reaching a dead end in any area, also “dead” as unproductive or not beneficial. Finances are not flowing, difficulties to make ends meet, or can barely make it. As a career: funeral home worker, medical examiner. Positive aspects: transformation, renewal, moving on.

[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

I guess you & Lakshmi may have something there. I was sort of shying away from seeing it as being able to predict a death. I preferred to see it more as a transformation card, but as I said to Lakshimi, perhaps I need to read w/it a bit and see how it works for me. We shouldn't shy away from it--as you say. It COULD very well predict a death, I guess.

Quote :

The Flowers

A very positive card, like a ray of sunshine! Happiness, joy, gift, love, invitation, your life is blooming, health wise, you feel great, if ill this would speak of a quick recovery, great atmosphere at work, get promoted… career: florist, gardener. Financially: a check is in the mail, financial prosperity, no worries at all. Great relationships, romantic, affectionate, true love.

yes, this card is a nice one, eh?

CN wrote:

Lakshmi wrote:

ok sounds great to me Sibella!! so, here's mine:

this is my interpretation using the mystical lenormand cards.

The Coffin:

Finality, the end of something. Death even. Could also mean a time of renewal, when old things or ideas and such are put away, buried, giving way to better prospects/not. Could indicate hidden ideas or truths/lies and secrecy.
Also it may signify on taking time to stop, reflect, and observe? As it's an Egyptian coffin, perhaps it also means to preserve ideas, or whatever we may have? To store within ourselves certain ideas?

interesting you see it as lies and secrecy. I can see the hidden ideas, but may I ask you to explain how you see it for lies and secrecy? I am not saying I can't ever see htat, but I didn't een think of that! I just want to understand why you see it this way, as it will help me. Unless it's something like 'taking the secret to my grave' kind of thing? hmmm...didn't even think of that before. is this how you mean it? Preserving ideas--THAT IS GREAT!!! sort of along hte lines I got, but I didn't narrow it down that way and love that!

Quote :

Health: well, it could very well mean death/and or it won't go away or get better. A time to let go and accept what is.
Love: stale, dormant, or just plainly: there is no love there. The relationship has died of, things are not what they were. The card says as well to just drop it and move on.
Finance: it's not going good. If there was a business prospect, it would become void with this card. Or the new business venture, or just your current job. Can mean you won't be able to pay your bills, your confined to the problems you have with no way out at the moment.

and see, I don't really think of it as a death per se. Perhaps if it came after a message card though, I'd see it as receiving a message of a death. I don't know...perhaps when I actually begin to read with the deck and have a lot more experience to me, I will change my mind.

first off, great thoughts on the 2 cards! it was very interesting to read.

for the coffin:
yes, i did think of "taking it to the grave" but i mainly leaned towards the lies and secrecy. the coffin holds the mummy, and the "outside" looks much better then the "inside". someone could be presenting a facade while "inside" it is the opposite....is that making any sense? the idea of being "closed" keeping secrets and/or having lies seems to me like it could apply to this card.
for sure reading the card as a death card is a delicate thing. but despite the transformation side of the card, death seems a factor to consider as well.

lennie wrote:

Some thoughts on the petals...
...after you pick a flower, it starts wilting and once the petals fall off, its death is eminent then...

...much like a human being, as soon as we are born, we start the dying process...(aging) and
when the last breath leaves us...death...and our beauty (the colorful petals of our lives) are gone!
(at least in this physical world)...

...but, of course, our true beauty is on the Other Side in our real home...
...we have to die here before we can return to 'perfect' love and peace...

Yep I agree! this is the idea also! And I agree also with you Lakshmi! The coffin could represent "dark secrets" held inside...nice on the outside not too nice on the inside...Makes me think of what Master Jesus said to the Pharisees..."you are like whitewashed tombs--beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people's bones and all sorts of impurity" (mat 23:27)

Very good points, Thanks!

Now, to continue to catch up with my posting....

You did such a great indepth study CN! with the Coffin and Bouquet So many good points you covered!

I agree transformation, new start, etc...are definitely among the meanings!

CN wrote:

NUMEROLOGY/ASTROLOGY
the number 8 in the upper left corner would indicate the 8th day, 8 weeks, or 8 mos. or the month of August. The roman numeral in the right hand side is also depicting 8.

I looked at my Mystical and the #8 on the right corner is actually the 8th house which speak about the same theme as the Coffin: radical changes, death, transformation, etc...

CN wrote:

....If it comes after a good card, it would enhance the good card to say it will prove very fortunate for them. After a bad card, it would indicate some troubles they will overcome."

LOVE
For love, hmmm...very difficult, really, Ithink. Perhaps a love in a sense of really spiritually connecting and a strong ever lasting love? I'll have to think on this one and come back later....."

I don't necessarily see the Coffin like that. For me, the coffin marks the end of something and by extension the beginning of something else. I don't see the Coffin reinforcing a good card. Like the Fish is a good prosperity card if the Coffin would follow, I would see it as:... there is going to be a radical change regarding your finances, possibly the end of a prosper cycle....to really know the outcome I would get another card...Imagine:

The Fish + The Coffin + The Mice

Well, that example shows that the Coffin would not reinforce the good neither "transform" things for the better. I would read: that the prosperity that is enjoyed will encounter a major change (crash at the stock market, an economic crisis, unexpected heavy expenses, a change in your work place, etc...) and you will end up with a loss, your prosperity will be affected and you will have to deal with less.

Like for "love", suppose the client gets the bouquet about his love life and other goodies...so it is like all is great but then the Coffin, this would mean that this wonderful relationship is going to experience a drastic change...might even be the end of it...I would add another card and if the Coffin is followed by a very positive card then it would be for the better or will transform into something even better, but what if a not so positive card appear like the Snake...I will say it would end in treason or turn out to be a deception...now we would look into the "inside" of the Coffin that is filled with rotten flesh....

And for Health, I would see it more as "serious health problem" or "health seriously threatened".

I don't really see the Coffin as a "overcoming" card. IMO, The Sun in the Lenormand is what would bring that kind of outcome...

What do you think CN?

CN wrote:

If this card was coming after the snake card, perhaps I would see it then as something sad coming their way via another person--a bad act coming their way and would warn them to watch out for that snake. If it was beside the clouds with the dark side of the cloud, it may also indicate illness, but if by the white side, I'd see this as the silver lining in the clouds coming to be--and this would be fortunate. Over all, a change is indicated w/this card, one that wouldn't allow the client to return to the past - as they are moving forward into a new experience/life.

I agree for the Snake, good point!

For the Clouds I don't see it that way. The Clouds are troubles coming more or less serious but that will be only temporary. With the white clouds it won't be too bad but trouble remains...Thus, even if I would see the Coffin coming by the side of the white Cloud, I would not see a good omen. I would say "some troubles, worries, delays are coming your way and they will cause major changes, or will produce more drastic results than expected..." again like for the other examples, I would want to know what card would follow the Coffin...which will indicate what it will be in the end. A change for the best or the worst? Problem getting worse or being solved? a positive or negative card will give the answer. At least that is the way, I would have interpreted if I would have been reading such combo...

For the bouquet, I felt the same way you did.... a lovely card indeed!

lennie wrote:

Some thoughts on the petals...
...after you pick a flower, it starts wilting and once the petals fall off, its death is eminent then...

...much like a human being, as soon as we are born, we start the dying process...(aging) and
when the last breath leaves us...death...and our beauty (the colorful petals of our lives) are gone!
(at least in this physical world)...

...but, of course, our true beauty is on the Other Side in our real home...
...we have to die here before we can return to 'perfect' love and peace...

wonderful pointers Lennie!

i did not think of seeing it that way!
and like Sibella said, thanks for the layout!!

Thank you so much Lennie for taking of your time to share with us this reading practice! That makes us virtual members of your "live" class! Such a pity I don't live in your area....

So, I cannot but encourage everyone to give it a try, like the saying goes:

"Practice makes perfect"!

To close our discussion on the Coffin and the Flowers, I will give the cartomancy meaning for both:

According to C. Sylvestre

Coffin:

9 of Diamond: this playcard talks about delays, obstacles; it increases querrels, and heartaches, also, difficulties, sadness...

Flowers:

Queen of Spades: she is a mean, bitter, not friendly and not talkative woman. She usually heralds, sadness, loneliness and isolation...
But in the Carta Mundi where you can see the playing card insert, she is rather elegant, beautiful, gracious and sweet...A bit of a contracdition there...But like C. Sylvestre points out, on this deck the Queen is looking at the flowers and it makes you think that by using kindness, gentleness, love, some people who are obnoxious can be won and can be drawn to respond in the same manner. Also, that love can ease pain and suffering, and brighten any dark situation.

Here are the 2 cards taken from the Carta Mundi:



[Only admins are allowed to see this image][img][/img]

[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

For this week session, we will move on with "The Scythe and The whip", study on your own and then share your thoughts for discussion. Thanks for your participation!

The Scythe and The whip

The Scythe:

okay, this card to read in the LWB indicates danger where the tip points by--unless there are good cards nearby. so, right now, I have the scythe card standing up and hten the whip card is next to it. Thus, the tip of the scythe card is pointing to a bad card--the whip. If it did show up this way in a reading, I'd immediately think of abuse happening--verbally or physically even perhaps emotional/mental. The guy in the whips card looks quite anguished and is literally beating himself up - like one particular group of Catholic monks/priests are known to do. I forget the name of them.

the scythe card can also indicate a sudden end to something and a new beginning. To me, I look at this card and it speaks of hard work. The oxen is pulling the cart filled with hay and teh scythe is up there. It sure seems like hard work--and it can also, I think indicate a lull. Perhaps coming to an end. a standstill. the ox is no longer moving but just standing there. perhaps pertaining to something that cannot proceed due to problems? The image in the upper right hand corner indicates the planet "Chiron". I had to look this one up, of course, and it is known as the healer planet. Mainly alternative healing practices. Chiron was named after a Centaur (who knew?) who was a good teacher, holistic healer, astrologer and musician. So, this card can also most likely indicate a musician, teacher, scientist or healer, I would imagine. or farmer! This planet is also symbolic of Sagittarius.

Sagittarians are fire signs. They tend to be passionate people who are eager to prove themselves and work hard at what they know/believe in.

I would say for timing, we may attribute the 10th month (Oct), 10 days, 10 weeks or 10 months from teh time of the reading. Also the time of Sagittarians--Nov. 23-Dec. 21.

WHIPS

This card just wreaks of hardship and pain. Its even a painful card to look at. persecution. religious persecution possibly. definitely abuse--whether it is self abuse or other abuse.
someone who is not quite right. a nutcase!

the LWB indicates that this card speaks of disagreements and arguments and being next to card 10, definitely danger of accidents.

the symbol in the upper right hand corner is indicative of the crescent waxing moon, which is also symbolic of positive changes, which is really different from what this card seems to emulate! this symbol is all about new ideas and making plans.

possibly making plans that could be difficult to carry out? not sure. the 11 would indicate 11 days, 11 wks, 11 mos. the moon sign could indicate the time of the waxing crescent moon too?

:thanks: CN for sharing your thoughts on the Scythe and Whip with us! Good info you found for the symbol Chiron I knew about the healing part but not about the Centaur! Now about:

the Scythe:

It is for me another controversial card in the Lenormand. I mean by that that the meaning given to it is not really positive, like you pointed out "dangers", it is a sharp object, so accidents would come to mind, you can hurt yourself real bad with it, so also pain is included, and you could kill someone...while it could represent a scalpel and by that surgery, which can be a concern (there is always a risk) but most of the time surgeons are good at what they are doing thus, we see right here a positive side of the Scythe. Suddenness is also clearly visible like you said...
This card for me is as much positive that it is negative. The Scythe can be dangerous as well as beneficial as it is the tool to harvest a crop. In the GDR lenormand, you only see the Scythe with bundles of wheat. At first glance, as a farmer, I can't help but having a "woohoo!!!" reaction, because bundles of wheat mean the harvest is about ready to be sold! Money is coming! Increase is coming! The hard work (like you so rightly discerned) is going to pay off...Because I live close to an Amish community I can actually see the "old time" hard work with the laborious making of these bundles of wheat by hands; just like in the pic of my GDR! And it takes a life time...they are doing it right and we have temp in the upper 90's and 100's today is going to reach 103F, thus that kind of temp. makes it even harder!
IMO, if we go by the picture; we’ve got a positive side of the card: "The harvest", while we have a negative side "The Scythe" and in my GDR, we also have "the darker clouds". At the stage of bundles, the wheat has not been gathered and secured in the silo yet, anything can still happen in the field.

I. Treppner, S. Steinbach and C. Sylvestre first see the negative part, but do include also the "harvest" part of this card.
I see another positive side even in the Scythe part of the pic. It is often beneficial to "prune" certain things that are fruitless or hurtful from our lives...

Now, there is something confusing for me; what are we going to do with the way the Scythe is pointing...? I believe in looking at the direction of the blade and see toward which card it points.
But, I have popped up scenarios in my mind about it and it is tricky! I agree with the way you interpreted the combination Scythe/Whip it makes sense to me...but, we could also see it as:

We make the sudden and definite decision (Scythe) to get a hold of ourselves and let go of a bad habit (Whip) which is well symbolized by the monk on the Mystical. Religious who use corporal self-chastisements like "the Opus Dei" priests do that to purge themselves from "sins", "uncleanness", to "keep the carnal" under control...( Were you thinking about them?) Pass a time it was common for monks and nuns of diverse order to use this way of purification to reach holiness.
Or it could also be that we are going to make a firm decision to put a stop (Scythe) to arguments, or abuses in a relationship (Whip).
Now, what I didn’t make up my mind about is the way each known “method” interprets The Scythe regarding direction.

I. Treppner says that the handle side of the Scythe is the “safe” side and it foretells that the danger has passed or is going to; the sharp side of course indicated “danger” present or coming to the client.
But she goes further saying that the Scythe can also “neutralize” negative cards when the sharp side points at them!?? Meaning instead of interpreting the combination in a very negative way, seeing it like reinforcing the bad card that follows…She thinks that the Scythe “cuts”, “destroys” the bad card…like if the mountain follows; it would mean that the blockage will be crushed, and if it is the “Clouds” card…the dark cloud will be dissolved etc…

On the other hand, C. Sylvestre says that the sharp side of the Scythe pointing at a bad card will reinforce the negative of that card making it even worse…thus with the Whip it forecast very, very awful arguments, or abuses, with the mountain, almost unmovable obstacles…
But if pointing toward positive cards, it would mean that important, decisive choices will be made that will have positive effects even if they will imply sacrifices.

What do you all think about these 2 contradictory ways of interpreting the cards?


The Whip:

Suffering, pain, punishment deserved or not, conflicts, words that hurt like a whip...
relationships are stressful, painful, involving hurting each other with words or physically. With the Whip there is no room for "diplomatic" negotiations!

The GDR deck only shows the leather whip that has several strings and some sort of an old fashion broom (sometimes called Birch rod). Anyway, 2 things that hurt! So really, when you just look at that picture the first thought is "ouch" that hurts!...It makes me think of correction, punishment, then by extension comes the conflict part.

CN wrote:

WHIPS…….the symbol in the upper right hand corner is indicative of the crescent waxing moon, which is also symbolic of positive changes, which is really different from what this card seems to emulate! this symbol is all about new ideas and making plans.possibly making plans that could be difficult to carry out? not sure. the 11 would indicate 11 days, 11 wks, 11 mos. the moon sign could indicate the time of the waxing crescent moon too?

Now about what you said CN for the symbol on the right corner of the Mystical; I looked at it and interpreted it more as a "waning crescent black moon". Being a witch this triggered for me the meaning that we see in this phase of the moon...and it actually matches well with the card. Here is what we believe:

A waning moon is used when there is a need to "banish/get rid" of something like a bad habit, an addiction, anything negative that has infiltrated one's life... The crescent is black. Black is used to banish/get rid, in that case a witch will use a black candle; this reinforces again the waning phase of the moon and its usage.
Associated with the Monk whipping himself as a self-punishment to "crucify" the flesh and get his carnal mind and body under the control of the spirit; makes perfect sense.

In the end both symbols go hand in hand.

Now, I don't agree with what I. Treppner says in her course. She list as main interpretation: "Conversations" "discussions"... I don't believe that this is the "main" aspect. For The "Birds" that we are going to study next is more the card of "conversations". And I differ also from 2 other methods as I can't help but see "suffering and correction by extension conflicts" first.

For C. Sylvestre, the main aspects are: quarrel, conflict, opposition

S. Steinbach: "arguments, fights, violence" and she also adds a sexual content with chemistry and passion.

What do you all think of these ways of interpreting the Whip card?

yes, I was thinking of the Opus Dei, thank you LS!!! I've read through your post here, and would love to comment furhter, but will do so later. I've been running all day and it is also very hot and humid here and I'm pooped. I didn't sleep last night again and then this heat on top of it, and my cars a/c doesn't work, and, and, and. you don't need to hear all ths, eh?

I will try to come back at some point to comment on your postings. I do see good and bad in the scythe too. Wonder where you live, as I use to live near the Mennonites and Amish as well. My family is from Amish country--(they were not Amish though my great grandmother was an Mennonite)--and our daughter and her family live near the Amish as well. Oh! and we do still live near a lot of Amish, *duh* we sometimes buy our flowers and produce from them.

at any rate, that doesn't really matter, but the points you brought up about the harvest and money coming in, yes, if I didn't mention it before, I can sure see that too. more later!

CN wrote:

yes, I was thinking of the Opus Dei, thank you LS!!! I've read through your post here, and would love to comment furhter, but will do so later. I've been running all day and it is also very hot and humid here and I'm pooped. I didn't sleep last night again and then this heat on top of it, and my cars a/c doesn't work, and, and, and. you don't need to hear all ths, eh? I will try to come back at some point to comment on your postings.... more later!

While you read my post I was adding on to it! I didn't know someone could read a post while it is being edited. So I don't know if you saw my comments on the Whip....At first I thought of doing 2 separate posts then I changed my mind....then, again as I realized I had forgotten to mention what was in my books!! So, you might have to re-read to see what you have missed

I see what you mean with the heat!!! Can't stand it anymore! this whole week has been going crazy! and it is going to be in the 100's all the way to sunday and if they are not wrong we are going to have next week in the upper 90's which is still too much for me...I do better when temp are in the 70's I know also about not sleeping well... that is often time the case for me since entered my 40's.....:fi55:

We buy are eggs from the Amish and my hubby does business with them like baling their hay, hauling their cattle to the market, etc....they are very nice and honest people, really good to do business with. Also, he enjoys their good spirited nature always ready to laugh, telling good jokes....I'll tell you where I live in a PM, just for the sake of privacy...

Anyway, come back anytime you can

lennie wrote:

i am not reading everyone's posts first...so you know this came out of my own head...

Lately i have decided that i don't want to 'over' read too much into each card, as i found
(for me anyway) it is better if i stick to the 'main' info for the card. What i mean is that i can
remember it better that way. Also, after loosing myself within tarot interpretations
(upright and reversed) since the 70's, i prefer not to add a bunch of branched off meanings
to each card as (for me) it would feel too much like the tarot again...and believe me that
is a lot of work! The simplicity of the Lenormand is what has attracted me the most.
So i say to 'myself': "i" need to keep this simple!... LOL

Further, there is nothing wrong with peope expanding on the meanings for these cards,
but just for me, i will keep my posting to brief meanings and right to the point...hope you all don't mind.

actually, I see well where you are coming from Lennie. This is what attracted me to the Lenormand at first too--it's simplicity. Just like with my tea leaf fortune reading cards too. I think you make a very valid point!

Quote :

Scythe
This card has a 'cutting' affect. It cuts something 'right off' quickly and shockingly!!!
There will be 'no return' once it cuts something (or you) off! It also represents
accidents or operations. It is mostly negative in its action, however, there are times
that cutting off something from your life may be a good thing! Such as a 'bad' boyfriend
or girlfriend dumping you! They cut you off quickly but it may turn out to
be the best thing that ever happened to you...LOL

yes, I agree with this. sometimes even a hurtful cut is the best for us in the long run and something that was needed.

Quote :

Whip
Arguments, hassels, disagreements that cause separation and divorces.
A card showing abuses using violence, anger, and even torture causing suffering as well.
There is also a 'sexual' side to this card...maybe even a 'weird' sexual side to it.

When this card describes another card (or a person), then it can show that they are an
'addict' of some sort. Some texts that i have read even mentioned this card represents
'stalking or a stalker'...i sure would not want someone like this following me around
or someone with these whip 'characteristics' in my life!

lol! no! yes, again, I do agree with this. I did have a stalker once--terribly frightening and it took years to really get over. Our daughter also had a stalker (an ex boyfriend) when she was young. We had to take legal action for that! This was another terribly frightening time for us all. I never really thought about this card as a stalker, but yes, I do now. Especially recalling how I felt when I was being stalked and how we all felt when our daughter was too. You feel so alone and scared and abused--even if something doesn't really happen to you personally. good pick up here, Lennie!

Quote :

Reading both cards in combination:
Scythe + Whip = Several meanings are possible, but i could read it as 'you cut off someone
from abusing you any longer'...or 'you stopped (cut out) having sex with someone'
...or...dangerous situation involving sex...someone could hurt you...rape you, etc.

yes, yes! very good!

Quote :

Whip + Scythe = violent abuse (or damaging arguments or fighting) that stopped or that was stopped.
Or a violent accident of some sort maybe involving a knife or other sharp object.

oh yes.

Quote :

Also @CN:
i just want to mention that my dog, RoseBud, did not break her hip but she
absolutely injured it very badly.i will post the results and the facts
of the reading right before i post my next Sat's class reading.

Now to go and read what everyone else said about the Scythe and the Whip...
i think it is really good that we all write our own thoughts on what these cards
mean to us because that way we can learn so much and then we are able to
break down the meanings into our own little ideas for each card. i think we
influence each other in this process. i know i have learned a lot from all of you
on here about the Lenormand cards we have discussed so far! Thank you everyone!

oh poor rosebud! hope she is soon better.